Interview with Maestro Giovanni Antonini | Wratislavia Cantans

Piotr Matwiejczuk: We meet in dramatic circumstances – a few days ago, war broke out in Ukraine. Western Europe, despite all its cultural and civilizational achievements, has proven to be very naive. Many politicians, including Italians, believed until recently that it was possible to negotiate with Russia on a diplomatic level.

Giovanni Antonini: No one expected such a turn of events. Many people believe that we are indeed experiencing a repeat of 1939. The danger lies in the fact that one man with dictatorial ambitions has such enormous power. I do not think we can simply talk about Russia, but rather about the Russian authorities. Even in the artistic world, things are very different. Recently, the authorities in Milan asked Valery Gergiev, who conducted Tchaikovsky's The Queen of Spades at La Scala, to speak out against the war. He did not do so because he is a good friend of Putin. Therefore, he was thanked for his collaboration not only in Italy. This is an example of an artist's engagement in politics, but I also know many Russian musicians who are opposed to this war. There is no doubt that Russia is an authoritarian country where one cannot freely express their views. I think that in Poland – due to its history and geographical location – you know Russia much better than we Italians do.

The problem, however, is that very few wanted to listen to us in the West when we were talking about how dangerous Putin is.

That is true. A good example is President Berlusconi, a friend of Putin. Unfortunately, the West has usually conducted what is called Realpolitik towards such dictators. It has always been about interests, resources, and fuels. And that is a dangerous game. Now, as Putin threatens to use nuclear weapons, everyone is wondering what to do. In Italy, there are still those who would like to negotiate with him, believing that the alternative is a world war. From this perspective, the title of this year's edition of the Wratislavia Cantans festival – "Dangerous Liaisons" – becomes extremely relevant and takes on new meanings.

Especially since for centuries we have all been living in Europe, and the current war is certainly not the first conflict with Russia. The relations between the West and the East have always been a kind of dangerous liaison.

Of course. The title of the festival has much less dramatic origins – it refers to the famous film by Stephen Frears Dangerous Liaisons, and primarily to the novel by Pierre Choderlos de Laclos of the same title. Some time ago, I read it again, which inspired me to look for analogies in music. Of course, it is not a book solely about sexual or romantic relationships.

The story described by Laclos has a clear social and political context. It is about seduction, which becomes a tool of social control. Therefore, the book was seen as a depiction of the corruption and depravity of the French aristocracy shortly before the revolution.

I would say that it is primarily a story about power – it is ultimately the driving force behind the actions of the characters. I would dare to assert that it is the most common reason for human actions in general. I do not forget that Wratislavia Cantans was established as an oratory festival, which is why this year we will start and end with oratorios. Written by Emilio de’ Cavalieri at the very beginning of the 17th century, Rappresentatione di anima et di corpo can be considered the first oratorio in the history of music, in which, apart from the music itself, beyond the sublimated art of recitar cantando, there is also a political and religious dimension. It was created during the warring era of the Counter-Reformation, when the Catholic Church was convincing that it was the only true representative of God on Earth. Today, several centuries later, we are talking about the same issues.

However, the convention in which this work is maintained – the personifications of Soul and Body discussing moral issues – seems to be quite far from our contemporary sensibilities.

I performed Rappresentatione last year in a staged version at the Theater an der Wien. At one point, a discussion arose between the singers and the director Robert Carsen regarding the details of the staging. Some believed that it should be à rebours, showing the violence of the Catholic Church. Since the rehearsals took place just after the American troops left Afghanistan, they even drew analogies with the Taliban. In the same year that Cavalieri's work was created, Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake. It turns out that a work from four hundred years ago still evokes strong emotions today – both in an aesthetic and social dimension. Moreover, the work raises the most universal questions, such as what happens after death or the mystery of time and its passage. Such questions are asked by all of us, regardless of whether we are religious. The issues raised in Rappresentatione are so fundamental that even a certain naivety in the way of speaking about them does not offend.

Besides, there is also excellent music…

I value it very highly. Since the piece is relatively short, Cavalieri himself inserted intermezzos between the acts, which often had nothing to do with the main content. In Wrocław, we are preparing a concert version, so we will not do that. However, I would like to perform instrumental music from the 17th century between the acts – music that became dramatic music presented in the form of a sonata. This was, after all, the result of the creation of vocal dramatic music in the form of oratorio or opera. I also think that Cavalieri's work has never been performed at Wratislavia, despite the fact that Andrzej Markowski reached for Baroque music in Italy. This is yet another reason why I wanted to perform Rappresentatione this year.

By the way, I must add that in recent years it has become fashionable among directors to "update" operas, interfering with them, which is also influenced by political correctness. In my opinion, this is often very dangerous, as it excludes many works of the past from circulation. Almost every creator, starting with Shakespeare, had something on their conscience that from our point of view can be difficult to accept. I would even call this trend fascist. Meanwhile, art is a space of freedom, and as an artist, I would not want anyone to tell me what I cannot listen to or read and what is politically correct or morally acceptable.

The dimension of the oratorio San Giovanni Battista by Alessandro Stradella is not only purely aesthetic. The story of this saint is also an example of very dangerous liaisons.

There were also many in the biography of the composer himself. Stradella, who was stabbed in Geneva, led a life full of adventures; I would describe his rich relationships with women as "vivace". [smile] In the 19th century, several operas were even created whose librettos were based on the biography of the composer. He thus became a romantic hero. San Giovanni Battista is actually an opera "disguised" as an oratorio – extremely dramatic music that tells of biblical events, but its structure is purely operatic. And the story of John the Baptist, who was beheaded due to a conspiracy by Herod, Herodias, is certainly also a story about power. From these examples, it can be inferred that almost all human relationships are dangerous, and from love, it is very close to power. [smile]

Another example is the story of the Bassano family – Venetian Jews, painters, and musicians – one branch of which moved to England and served at the royal court. What will the concert Il viaggio dei Bassano tell us?

I would say that they were primarily builders of instruments and improvising musicians. Interestingly, their descendants still live today. Very little music by representatives of the Bassano family has survived – we do not know any works from the first generation, only a few compositions by Augustin Bassano, a representative of the second generation. The Bassanos were such excellent instrument builders that their fame reached England, and King Henry VIII invited them to his court. The decision to move was certainly difficult for them, and the Venetian complained that he was losing such outstanding artists. But the family must have simply received better working conditions on the Isles. We must not forget that Henry VIII was a great lover of music; he even composed himself. With the ensemble Il Giardino Armonico, I will perform some of his works. And here we indeed find "dangerous liaisons" – such were all of Henry VIII's marriages, which Anna Boleyn particularly experienced. Thus, the guiding thought of this concert is not the presentation of works by representatives of the Bassano family, as they simply do not exist, but the repertoire they performed and an attempt to recreate the art of improvisation for which these musicians were famous. And this probably fascinated the king the most.

In this context, Silvestro Ganassi appears, a Venetian musician, author of the treatise La Fontegara from 1535, in which he was the first to describe in great detail the complicated patterns of improvisation, especially in the rhythmic sphere. He provided hundreds of examples, including those that take into account complicated musical meters. This is an extremely important source for understanding the art of diminutions, as it contains everything that was not included in musical notation. I believe that this work was created, at least partially, as a description of the art practiced by the members of the Bassano family. After Ganassi, many other treatises on improvisation were published, and one of the most important was created in the 1620s by Francesco Rognoni, associated with the court of Polish King Sigismund III Vasa. These sources are extremely fascinating. We can compare them to recordings of contemporary jazz musicians: if we want to know how Charlie Parker played, we must listen to his recordings, but we do not have recordings of the Bassano family members' performances. We do, however, have treatises. The program of our concert will be a kind of journey from the earliest works of Flemish composers, published in 1501 in Venice in the first printed collection of polyphonic music Odhecaton, to late Renaissance English works from the time of Shakespeare.

You mentioned the connection of the Bassano family with Venice. In turn, the heroine of Francis Poulenc's one-act lyrical tragedy La voix humaine is parting with her beloved, who has abandoned her. Meanwhile, Richard Strauss in Metamorphosen is parting with a world that was swept away by World War II. He referred to the funeral march from Beethoven's Eroica, and in the score, he wrote the words "In memoriam." These are expressive, strong gestures that I associate with our contemporary experiences of the pandemic and war.

Although these are two completely different works, they are both about partings, that is true. Today we are parting with such a Europe as we have known until now. Such a Europe is too lazy to foresee possible scenarios of events, which Strauss also experienced. I must emphasize that the title of this year's festival has its roots precisely in this concert. But not because of the program, but because of the performer – Barbara Hannigan. She is indeed an exceptional artist who performs a very difficult art – conducting while singing. I was amazed when I watched her concert with the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France. The way she leads the orchestra, especially the gesture of the act, is closely integrated with the narrative, becoming an essential part of it. Here we find a direct connection between the work and the singer-conductor in one person – without any intermediaries. We can watch and listen to La voix humaine in this performance online, but experiencing this concert live is something completely different and unique.

Parting with love is also the song of the wandering apprentice Gustav Mahler, which will be juxtaposed in the concert with the songs of Alma Mahler, the composer's wife. We still know very little about her creativity; we probably know more about the marriage of the Mahlers, which was not easy. Alma, to marry Gustav, had to give up composing, although in the end, he agreed that she would return to writing. He even helped her edit and publish her songs.

Alma Mahler's persona seems very interesting to me. Someone called her a "widow after four husbands" – her life was full of many interesting relationships, not only with Mahler, but also with Klimt and Kokoschka. The relationship with Mahler was not easy, as he required her to abandon her own creativity and focus on him. Their marriage did not last long, as Mahler died in 1911. They also experienced the death of their daughter. It seems that it was not a happy marriage. From the perspective of this year's Wratislavia theme, however, the more important fact is that Alma was a kind of femme fatale, as many artists active at that time in the exceptional city of Vienna at the beginning of the 20th century mentioned. It was also a politically difficult time – it was precisely between others with the world of the Mahlers that Strauss's Metamorphosen took place. In fact, this world, furnished by the bourgeoisie, ended with World War I.
I am curious how you would describe Beethoven's relationship with the Church. Missa solemnis was created for a specific occasion to be performed within the liturgy, but in general, it is not suitable for that. Theodor W. Adorno called it an "alienated masterpiece."

This is a characteristic example of all of Beethoven's late creativity, which exists somehow outside any world. Missa solemnis, like the late quartets or the Ninth Symphony, is a work whose performance poses many problems. The mass is, on the one hand, closely related to the refined music of the past, and on the other hand, it reaches far into the future. That is why it is so difficult, which is why it is hard to classify and place it on the axis of history. What seems most interesting to me is precisely Beethoven's connections with the past and the future of music.

Therefore, Missa solemnis requires an extremely experienced conductor who knows the score thoroughly. In Wrocław, we will hear Beethoven's work under the direction of such a conductor.

I am extremely pleased that our invitation was accepted by John Eliot Gardiner, who started as a "regular" conductor but then evolved towards historical performance. I find his approach to interpreting 19th-century music on period instruments particularly interesting. The result is a much greater clarity of texture. I must admit that performing Beethoven in a post-romantic manner has never convinced me. So I am sure that Gardiner, who knows the score of Missa solemnis like few others, will show a completely different approach to this work.

Equally outstanding specialists in their field are Le Poème Harmonique and Vincent Dumestre. Their concert will present Jean-Baptiste Lully and his namesake Molière as rivals, although we probably most often perceive them as colleagues and close collaborators.

They only collaborated at the beginning of their activities at the royal court. Let us remember that Lully was an absolute ruler in the field of music in Paris, the musical Louis XIV. Other musicians had to reckon with many limitations, for example, in terms of the number of instruments in ensembles. At one point, Lully severed his relationship with Molière, and he began to collaborate with Charpentier. This was certainly a very difficult moment for both artists, who started as friends and ended as enemies. It is worth remembering that in January of this year, we celebrated the 400th anniversary of Molière's birth.

And since we are talking so much about politics, let us mention it in connection with Lully and Molière. After all, art, especially dance and music, had an extremely important political dimension at the court of the Sun King.

Of course, dance and music were tools in the hands of an absolute ruler, which sometimes seems very relevant today. The works of Molière are also still relevant. But after all, Baroque art was often very much associated with power and the Church. Fortunately, it also always had an aesthetic dimension.
This year's festival is also – in accordance with a long-standing tradition – a world premiere. This time, the Eighth Symphony by Paweł Łukaszewski, one of the most popular living Polish composers, will sound.

I think he is the most frequently performed composer in the world today, not just Polish. The subtitle of the symphony "Hymns of Banganarti" refers to an archaeological site in Sudan, where Polish scientists discovered, among other things, bones from the first millennium – a true rarity. The patron of the sanctuary was Archangel Raphael, and inscriptions dedicated to him were discovered on the walls. And they constitute the text of the bass part. I am looking forward to this premiere with great anticipation.

Many of us are looking forward to this year's Wratislavia with the hope that artistic life in Europe has been revived for good after a long pandemic break. We thought it was the end of the drama in which we were actors. Meanwhile, its second act has begun, this time a war one. What situation are we currently in?

I can only answer this question from a personal perspective. I feel very intellectually and emotionally exhausted. In working on the Wrocław festival, I have tried to be as creative as possible. Everywhere around me, I sought inspiration to then create a kind of synthesis of what interests me and what is most interesting on the world music scene. This year, however, it turned out to be much more difficult, as I lacked those impulses that I always had in abundance: meetings with people, concerts, discovering new works and new interpretations, surprises, and discoveries – that which has been my life for as long as I can remember. All of this has been overshadowed by anxiety related to the war, which, although it is taking place far from me, has many Ukrainians living in Italy. I am moved by what is said in the Italian media. It is so emotionally engaging that sometimes it is difficult for me to return to music and close myself in my own artistic world. This is nothing compared to the drama of people in Ukraine, but that is my experience. On top of that, there is anxiety about the future of Europe and the world – somewhere in the background, for example, great China is looming. But what do we know about the Chinese? They are young, and at all costs, they want to play a leading role in the world and are already ready for it.

You said that in such a situation it is difficult to return to music. But what else could help us if not music?

That is why I play, listen, conduct rehearsals, give concerts. Some of them are also canceled, as happened a few days ago when we canceled a performance in Sochi, Russia. However, that did not prevent us from continuing rehearsals with Il Giardino Armonico – those few hours a day spent on joint work are a true joy. Music provides comfort, which, however, is not enough at this moment. I am not only a musician, a fanatic, but also simply a human being. That is why I feel lost now.